How to Embrace a Healthy "Content Diet": Nemanja Zivkovic

Transcript lightly edited for spelling and punctuation. The conversation is unabridged.

Mark Evans: You're listening to Marketing Spark, the podcast that delivers insight, tools, and tips for marketers and entrepreneurs in the trenches in twenty minutes or less. Over the past six months, I've reached out to many marketers to do this podcast. Some have specific expertise, and others offer great and interesting insight into marketing strategies and tactical execution. One of these people is Nemanja Zivkovic, the CEO of Funky Marketing in Serbia. Welcome to Marketing Spark.

Nemanja Zivkovic: Hey, Mark. Thanks for having me.

Mark Evans: You've got a very active presence on LinkedIn, and you cover a wide variety of topics. And one of the topics that jumped out to me recently was your interest in brand positioning. And I've noticed growing interest among B2B brands in differentiating themselves and really carving out a distinct profile in the marketplace. And I'm curious from your perspective and the work that you've done with clients is why do you think B2B companies struggle with differentiation?

Nemanja Zivkovic: Well, there are multiple reasons for that, basically, because they don't know who they are as themselves. So when somebody has started the company, they didn't think about their story and what is their story. They didn't then hire people based on their story. They didn't create the culture, the values, and they didn't build on that. So, kind of, it's always about the basics and how we cover the foundation. And then when we start developing the company and everything, it still should be, like, bland, and then we just fit in within the whole marketplace. B2B has always been a place where, like, everything is foggy, blurry. People tend not to be different, not to stand out. We're just doing our job talking about ourselves, talking about our products, our features. B2B companies are still thinking about their target group as the company, like, as the object, not as we have a certain specific person from that company that we need to target. So those are all the reasons why it's happening.

Mark Evans: One of the interesting things that if you look at the martech landscape, now there are thousands and thousands of companies, and no B2B company has a unique. There's none of them are unique. There's dozens, if not hundreds of companies doing the exact same thing with the exact same benefits and features, yet differentiation is still something they struggle with. You would think that they would double down on trying to carve out brand positioning that's compelling and distinct. Is it because it's hard, or is it because they're just not focused on it?

Nemanja Zivkovic: It's definitely hard, and it's something that you need to work on persistently. And their way of seeing the differentiation is kind of different and not right. I think nobody has influenced them when it comes to differentiation, when it comes to what does it mean to be different. Like, one of the examples there I saw, like, I think two weeks ago is the company that when I asked them, like, they are doing the online events software, and I asked them, like, why are you different from all the others? This is a competitive industry, competitive field, so what differentiates you from the other? They say, like, we have the lowest price. It's something that cannot be your differentiator because, like, tomorrow, somebody else might lower their prices, and then what happens? You lose the only differentiation that you think you have. And a lot of those companies, especially in the field where I am in, like, B2B tech and software companies, a lot of them have as their biggest assets, the people. And somehow, they struggle to show those assets to the world. And by doing that, just by doing that, they will differentiate. But because there are multiple reasons, because they are not doing it, and some of the things are they are still afraid what they might write, let's say, on LinkedIn, what they may say, what are some things they can think about the company. They might hurt them. There's a fear present. The reasons for all this is basically the lack of culture, the lack of values in the company, and the lack of culture.

Mark Evans: One of the ways that many B2B companies have tried to stand out this year is through a focus on content marketing. But I would suggest that a lot of it has been, a lot of it has to do with publication, creation and publication. There hasn't been enough emphasis on successful content distribution. When you work with clients or you look at the B2B landscape in general, what are some best practices that you are suggesting to make sure content's discovered? Because one thing to make content is another thing to actually have it consumed and do whatever you need it to do, whether it's attract leads or build brand awareness or attract media attention. Any thoughts on successful content distribution?

Nemanja Zivkovic: Yeah. That's a great topic, and we can continue from what we just talked about. So people that work in those companies, those are, like, the great points for the content distribution. When we start working with companies, a lot of them have already published content on the website. This is actually, in most cases, good content based on SEO, but written only for the search engine, not written for the people, and it's possibly shared one or two times on the company pages and probably just employees saw it, maybe their friends or relatives, and that's it. Like, those are not their target groups and people for whom they are creating the content. So to be able to distribute it to the right people, we need to do a lot of different things. First one is that we need to create the content with those people that we are targeting. So we need to invite clients, people from our targeted groups, target companies to come and create content with us, kind of like the thing that we are doing right now. So recording podcasts, maybe also recording video, distributing that then on YouTube when it comes to video, Anchor, Spotify, Apple, or whatever when it comes to the audio, then figuring out the platform where our target group is. So let's say B2B, it's mostly on LinkedIn. So then we repurpose that content in five to eight pieces of content, smaller ones up to ten minutes because of the LinkedIn limitation. So we have, like, audiograms. We have videos with headlines, with transcriptions. Then we have also quotes from those things. Then we can come up with blog posts, like hire a ghostwriter to write a blog post out of those things, and we get a lot just from few buckets of content. Then we can share it also on Medium. We can share it on Zest, on all different kind of platforms. If we involve even Reddit and maybe Quora, then you see how we get from one piece of content. We get so many different touches with the potential clients and the audience, and we give them the choice to kind of choose their own way of how they're gonna learn from us, how they interact with us, and eventually, when they are educated enough, come and convert or buy from us.

Mark Evans: But that's a lot of work. I mean, you have to obviously have the content in the first place, then you have to create a distribution strategy, and then you have to repurpose all the content. So how do you organize that? How should someone, for example, take a podcast and then carve it up into different pieces so that you can distribute it to the different platforms and the different services?

Nemanja Zivkovic: Actually, it's not that hard. In Funky Marketing, it was just three of us, and we managed to distribute content to a lot of places. It's just about how you figure out the priorities. So the first person that I hired was the video editor. So we can edit the videos, repurpose them, and create different kind of batches of videos outside of main content pillars. And it's also how you actually create the content. If you create the content with distribution in mind, so let's say we create the podcast. You ask questions, then I answer, then we go in the circles. So we actually create the content purposely for distribution. And this is actually how we do it. You know? Just create the content with distribution in mind, not with search engines in mind, but it should be the content that is consumable by the people. Also, one of the things that I forgot to mention before is advertising. Facebook and Instagram advertising, especially in B2B, people don't consider it as a successful channel, but it's because they are always trying to get leads. But those channels are very good for distributing content so the right people can consume it. This is also one of the things that can accelerate for the content strategy to work and can shorten the sales cycle as well.

Mark Evans: It really is interesting to look at how content is being created, and the fact of the matter is a lot of content is still being tailored for search engines as opposed to, as you said earlier, people. And I think that's a really interesting insight, and I think one LinkedIn post that you published recently that caught my attention is you talked about why you don't pay for online courses or paid communities, and you only consume content from a few people. And I'm really curious about why you take that approach. And as important, how do you improve and upgrade your marketing skills?

Nemanja Zivkovic: Yeah. It's kind of interesting. I mean, I made a point based on, like it's, I think, my tenth year working in marketing. And when I started, I knew how to do, let's say, community, social media. The one thing that was missing was the SEO. So the agency, when I started to work, they gave me access to multiple online courses, and I listened first to some of them covering the SEO, then I started to implement it. And I think that was the maybe two or three courses, the only ones that I ever enrolled. I didn't pay for them. The company paid, and I don't have anything against, like, paying for anything that will give me value. But I just didn't find something that will help me learn. I usually learn by doing, by interacting with people, and that's why I created sort of, like, my own way of consuming content. I consume a lot of things on YouTube. I listen to a lot of podcasts. And I think year and a half ago, I decided I don't need to follow social media week or those kind of, like, huge platforms that media they're talking about social media, what are the trends, what's gonna happen. I just need to focus on a few people since some folks in B2B on inbound. There are, like, less than five people that are doing something that is revolutionary in the field, and I need to focus on them and, like, kind of try to learn from them, try to compare some things that they are doing to what I'm doing, and that's how I improve. And I also focus on two different things. First one is always innovating, always having, like, a client which is possibly start up so I can get into dirt and see what's going on because, like, from the dirt, you can predict what's gonna happen afterwards, not by just seeing the big picture. The big picture is being seen by being involved in the dirt. And, also, the second one is talking with the clients, current, and potential one. Like, I'm spending two to three hours a day just talking with people doing different things and sharing experiences, and that's actually how I grow and how I learn.

Mark Evans: Just out of curiosity, that small group of marketers who you follow, do you want to reveal any of them, or are they kinda like the Nemanja secret?

Nemanja Zivkovic: Yeah. Let's say I mean, I learned a lot from Chris Walker.

Mark Evans: Yes. A lot of people do.

Nemanja Zivkovic: Yeah. Some of the things that he's doing, I've been doing a lot because we work in different industries, but I also come from B2C background. And I kind of saw that some things that I was doing, I kind of recognized that he was talking about it. So okay. It makes sense. Jake Dunlop is one from sales that I love because he's talking a lot about life sales, sales being involved marketing being involved in sales, alignment, those kind of things. Also, Dave Gerhardt has always been a guy that's doing something differently. I remember it was 2018, I think, where I was director of operation in the previous agency where I worked at. We ordered conversational marketing, the book that Dave and David Cancel wrote. And, like, two weeks after we got the book, the postman came, and we received another book called 'It's On Scale'. The small book of, like, I think, 47 things that Drift has done to create the hyper-growth company, and we didn't order that book. They just send it over from US to Serbia for free for us as an additional value, and then I saw it. Actually, they are doing really good things, and that's how you give value to somebody that you don't even know and lives in a different continent. And, yeah, those are, like, maybe three people that I'm following. Also, Peep Laja is one of those that are following for a long time. We just recorded the podcast together, so kind of interesting how the things are going. You know, there are people that you look up to, that you compare yourself to, and then you start cooperating with them and working with them, and things move to the next level.

Mark Evans: Interesting about Dave Gerhardt because he has this community, I think, of more than 10,000 people now who pay $10 a month to access, I guess, exclusive content and other things that you can't get if you're not a subscriber. So what do you think of those type of communities where you're paying $10 or $15 a month? How does it align with your view of not paying for a lot of marketing? Mhm.

Nemanja Zivkovic: I think I'm a member of that community, actually the only one. Just intrigued to find out what's going on out there and how are things going. But, like, I'm okay with that. If that is something that works for you, I think limiting the access to your community is a short term goal that can give you a lot in the short term, but, you know, if you focus on the long term, this is not something that I would do or something that I would recognize. I also have the community of, like, 2,500 people on Facebook. It's a private community, but it's always open depending on, like, how people answer a few questions. And we just give value over there, not trying to do anything else. But in Dave's case, I think because it's a paid community, it gives him the chance to also do some other stuff and to involve maybe other content creators, other professionals, and to grow more in the community. I think he's doing a really good job with that.

Mark Evans: So let's talk about Funky Marketing, which I think launched earlier this year. Is that true? Is it a relatively new company?

Nemanja Zivkovic: Yeah. January 13.

Mark Evans: So just before COVID. It must have been an interesting year. And I'm wondering what it's been like to run a digital marketing agency this year. And what's it like to work with clients, and what are they looking for as opposed to what they may have been doing pre COVID? And what are some of the biggest business lessons that you've learned this year?

Nemanja Zivkovic: Yeah. It was an interesting development because I left the previous agency where I worked at just before it was in October that year, and I was preparing the wedding. And I didn't have any money left on the side, so I just sat down and wrote what's gonna happen in the next three months and ending with January when I'm gonna register the company and just executed on that. And that's how I started. At first, I didn't know who I was targeting. I just knew that I want to focus on inbound, on brand because I was working in performance marketing and on a high level, and I saw it work. But I saw it that it also has a plateau, and it works until you have the budget. But, like, if you want to grow more and continue growing, then you need to invest in inbound. You need to invest in brand, in content. I was always like the guy who was investing in his personal brand and content. That's how everything started. I actually landed the first client in, like, five hours after we published the landing page. It was just a simple landing page with a CTA and download the strategy of, like, 30 pages with examples and results that I have with other clients. So it can be a document of value even without them hiring us. So that's kind of a good start. When the COVID started, a lot of clients reach out to me. They wanted me to take over some other stuff that I didn't do at the time because it was easier for them to instead of hiring someone to get to us. So the previous plan was for me to take a year to learn more about entrepreneurship because I knew about marketing, but entrepreneurship was something different. But it doesn't go as you imagined, so I needed to hire people. Actually, they found me because they love my story. They love the brand and everything that I was building, so they reach out to me. That's how I hired two guys, which are still with us. And some of the clients that I started to work, they're also still with us. And we are ending the year, like, closing 31 clients, doing exactly what the strategies that we are selling to the clients. So kind of proving that some things are working, And it's kind of different when I compare this year to the previous year. Overall, like, e-commerce space grew a lot. I think we move, like, maybe ten or even twelve years in future. Within few months, people needed to do the digital transformation faster. They needed to open online shops. They needed to transform their businesses and kind of change the whole narrative and the way people think about things. Also, it changed the way they look at the content, that thing that you mentioned, because the content became more something that is relevant, because they couldn't focus on advertising when it comes to pandemic those kind of things. That's, I think, how the narrative was changed. Now what's gonna happen in the next year? Probably, we're gonna move more towards customers. We're gonna go to meet them halfway, even more than that because we are seeing what B2C companies are doing, like Spotify, Netflix, Airbnb, some great examples, and there, people will expect that from also from Coca-Cola, from other companies, and especially from B2B companies. And I think it will change the way B2B companies actually do marketing because they will need to invest in creativity, in feelings, in emotions, in people before everything else.

Mark Evans: Yeah. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? So what do you mean in terms of this focus on customers? I mean, is it different types of content? Is it interacting with customers directly? What's involved in terms of this shift that you envision?

Nemanja Zivkovic: Yeah. I mean, we can even talk using some of the examples, not like Netflix or Airbnb or some else. But when it comes to that, if you are using them, you know that they are giving you personalized experience. So based on how you consume their services, their product, they are recommending you what you should do next, and they are interacting with you in that way on social media, through email, in all kind of different forms. And just let's just take a look at, like, what Gravy, for example, is doing or Gong, how their people from their companies are interacting with others on LinkedIn. This is by focusing on personal brands of the people in front of the company. They are meeting their potential customers over there. They are talking with them every day, engaging not only through personal profiles, but on the company pages. An example, like Gong even organized the party on Zoom, and they were sharing the songs on their LinkedIn company page and discuss, like, who likes hip hop, who likes gangsta funk, who likes some other things, and it was, like, totally a party on the LinkedIn page. And it's totally some other experience which before that were limited to B2C companies.

Mark Evans: That's gonna be really interesting trend to watch this. Now speaking of music, you recently published a year-end playlist featuring 940 songs. I think that's enough. Those are enough songs to get you through the entire holiday. Tough question for you. Who is your favorite artist of 2020?

Nemanja Zivkovic: Yeah. It's the playlist where I'm adding songs as I like something I just added to the playlist.

Mark Evans: That's a tough question. I apologize for asking that because you must like a

Nemanja Zivkovic: lot of music. It's cool. Usually, people don't ask, and I love to talk about music. Like, I would say Hybrid Minds or maybe SAINt JHN. Like, those are, like, two artists that I was listening the most, and then there are always, like, some classics that I'm listening to, like, Liam Gallagher, Bruce Springsteen, Leonard Cohen. Those are, like, people that I'm always listening, you know, no matter which year it is.

Mark Evans: Well, I think that anyone who likes the boss is a good person in my book. I've seen him in concert a lot. If I can give you a suggestion, at least from the Canadian perspective, there's a band called the Arkells, which have done, they've done some really great work, and they're amazing to see live. So maybe one day, they'll eventually make their way to Serbia, and you'll be able to see a Canadian band in action.

Nemanja Zivkovic: Yeah. You know what's interesting? Like, the first marketing agency that I work at was an agency based in Toronto, Canada. Yeah. It's a half-Serbian, half-US, half-Canadian agency. Like, the founders, there were two founders, both were from Serbia, but one of them moved to Toronto, like, when he was a kid. And it was kind of interesting.

Mark Evans: Yeah. It is a very small world, and what I've discovered from LinkedIn this year is that the world is a big place, but you can connect with people anywhere and everywhere. And our ability to connect via LinkedIn and being able to do this podcast is just some of the value that I've seen from LinkedIn this year. And I really want to thank you for being on the podcast. It's great to get your insight. It's really interesting to get different perspectives from people who live in different places. We're looking forward to seeing you in 2021. One final question. If people want to learn more about you and Funky Marketing, where do they go online?

Nemanja Zivkovic: I think they're everywhere. Like, mostly LinkedIn. There's a Facebook group also called Funky Marketing. Funky Marketing on YouTube, on Anchor, there are, like, few podcasts. We're organizing Funky Marketing podcast also B2B biweekly podcast, but, I mean, just type Funky Marketing in Google search, and I think that is the right way to get to us.

Mark Evans: Thanks for listening to another episode of Marketing Spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review and subscribe via iTunes or your favorite podcast app. For show notes of today's conversation and information about Nemanja, visit marketingspark.co/funkymarketing. If you have questions, feedback, or like to suggest a guest and want to learn more about how I help B2B companies as fractional CMO, consultant, and adviser, send an email to mark@marketingspark.co. I'll talk to you next time.