Hiring a marketing consultant is often a leap of faith.
You’re hoping their expertise and experience fills gaps and make things happen.
But a lot of consulting engagements don’t work as well as expected.
- There’s misalignment on expectations.
- A lack of engagement and collaboration (no partnership)
- Not enough clarity about what success looks like.
- A lack of commitment to actually do marketing (more talk than walk)
When I lost a client recently, some of these issues reared their ugly heads.
To get some more perspective, I talked to Kevin Whelan, who helps marketing consultants improve their businesses.
A key theme was how companies need to hire consultant and, as important, how and when consultants should take on clients.
Consulting is a two-way street.
Both parties need to agree to work together. It’s there’s a good fit, that’s a great start.
Auto-generated transcript. Speaker names, spelling, and punctuation may be slightly off.
Mark Evans: Hi. It's Mark Evans, and you're listening to Marketing Spark. As a marketing consultant, it's rewarding when what you do delivers value and helps you be more successful. But sometimes engagements don't work out for a variety of reasons. I recently parted ways with a client, which was disappointing, although not terribly surprising given the red flags that were popping up. But it got me thinking about how companies should hire marketing consultants and, in turn, how and why marketing consultants should take on engagement with clients. In an ideal world, you're looking to create a win win proposition. The company gets what they need strategically or tactically, and the consultant performs and gets compensated. To get some perspective, I reached out to Kevin Whelan, a marketing consultant who also teaches other marketing professionals how to build and run a profitable marketing advisory practice. Welcome to MarketingSpark, Kevin.
Kevin Whelan: Thanks, Mark. Nice to be here.
Mark Evans: Before we get started, I should be transparent. Kevin and I have been working together for the past year. Kevin is my business coach, and he's had a huge impact on how my strategic advisory business operates. The ROI has been tremendous. So, Kevin, I wanna start with the basics. It sounds like a softball question, and it is, but I think it sets the stage for our conversation. What is a consultant, and what should a company expect them to do and as important not do compared with an employee, especially with the rise of fractional talent?
Kevin Whelan: Great question, and there's there's a lot of parts to that, Mark. I think, ultimately, at the end of the day, a consultant's job is to help a client get from point a to point b, whatever that whatever that transition looks like. That's their first and primary objective. But but secondarily, their job is to provide risk mitigation and to make sure that things don't fall off the rail. So anytime someone hires a consultant, the first thing you wanna know is, okay, how do we not screw up what's working, and how do we then also achieve our new objectives and our new goals? So, really, the consultant has two main jobs, which is one, to reach for the stars and to help achieve those things. Usually, there are things that are higher risk or maybe not bet the business, but potentially a shift in positioning or an expansion into, say, a new market or a new product or service line, something that is generally inherently risky and or difficult and that they the the company themselves don't have a lot of experience in. So that's sort of what a consultant does, and that could even be as simple as let's build an effective marketing program just so that we, you know, we have more structure because we are really stressed out or disorganized, or it can mean a number of other things depending on the context. I think you had a second part of that question around employees and and how they sort of differ from a consultant.
Mark Evans: Exactly. So the engagement that I was in, I felt like I was being treated like an employee. Like, I was, in some respects, an order taker. From our conversations, there's a difference between hiring a consultant and hiring an full time employee. Maybe you can elaborate on, you know, how you delineate and how should how should each party view each other given the fact that it's not a full time engagement?
Kevin Whelan: Yeah. I think a lot of it is just understanding sort of the the the definition or or the the objective of a of a consultant. So, really, a consultant isn't an employee. Even by legal definitions. You know? A consultant has to use their own tools. You can't tell them sort of exactly where to to go and when to work and how to do things. Ultimately, a consultant or any kind of a contractor, needs to have some sort of autonomy to accomplish their their goals. And they're not just taking orders and that kind of thing because, frankly, that's just not the way a consultant, agreement is structured. Secondly, you're hire you don't hire a consultant and and tell them what to do. You know? Typically, they have more experience on the subject in which you're being they're being hired for. And if you're looking to just sort of hire a consultant, have them be a set of hands, you're better off working with a part time employee or, you know, sure, maybe some contractors who are just gonna follow some tasks. But ultimately, they're in the business of helping you accomplish a result. So, yeah, at the end of the day, that's that's, you know, really important distinction is that you have to be ready to kind of submit to their process and to sort of be bought into their expertise before you even work with them. And it's the consultant's job upfront to set those expectations that, hey. I'm gonna take you on a journey. I'm gonna take in your input, and we're gonna go with the best way that I know how to get you to that destination. And I need to be able to steer the ship, and you need to be able to give up the reins for a bit as we go as we navigate these things.
Mark Evans: Now one of the wildcards within the consulting world these days is the idea that fractional executive, a fractional CMO, which is what I do, fractional revenue officers, a fractional chief financial officers. How does that change the dynamic, and and how should companies view fractional executives or fractional leadership people?
Kevin Whelan: I mean, they should view them as as consulting engagements, first and foremost. There might there might be a task component to it. You know, fractional CMOs typically also have a bookkeeping component, but that's usually handled by someone on the team and not usually the fractional CMO themselves. So just the same way or CFO in that case. Just the same way you wouldn't have your chief marketing officer, you know, writing tweets and, proof editing blog posts and choosing colors and uploading content on a website. You nor would you have a chief, fractional chief marketing officer or fractional CMO do those kinds of tasks either. So the way you wanna be approaching this is what would you know, how do we bring someone in at a high level so that they're gonna steer the ship? They're not gonna be the engine. They're not gonna drive projects forward. They're not gonna be project managers even necessarily. They're facilitators. They remove roadblocks. They ultimately their job is to get a result however however they can and need to be done. A lot of people when they hire a fractional CMO or at least when they consider hiring one are really thinking they need basically a part time marketing manager. So the to me, I define that as sort of a managed advisory services or some kind of a contract marketing position, and that's just different. That's just someone to basically be a set of hands with some level of experience or expertise, tactical or otherwise. But, yeah, ultimately, you you wanna be thinking at at a higher level with a fractional CMO, which is ultimately an advisory role.
Mark Evans: Here's another softball question. When and why should a company hire a marketing consultant? It's a question I wonder about all the time because I'm always trying to solicit companies that are looking for consulting help. But I am curious about when can a company justify hiring a consultant versus hiring a full time employee?
Kevin Whelan: Yeah. I mean, that's a really great question. Generally speaking, when you're I mean, we have a lot invested when you're spending 10 plus thousand dollars a month. Basically, you wanna manage that invested spend as as effectively as you can. And I can't to you know, if I were to do, say, home renovations on my house every single month for the rest of my life, and I wasn't really an expert on everything from paint colors to choosing suppliers to knowing how to design a space or something. Basically, I'd be out of my depth, and that would be every single month forever and ever because that's not my core competency. So when you bring in a consultant, their job is to be a steward of your resources and to be a steward of your company and your goals and to help you sort of accomplish the outcomes you're looking for through management of the resources and by removing the roadblocks necessary to do those things. Now you can hire a an employee to do that for you. They just tend to not have the level of seniority that, say, a fractional CMO or a marketing adviser would have. And, obviously, this will vary on a person by person basis. You should do your own due diligence regardless. But that's sort of the main difference. A consultant will have a real like, a Rolodex of freelancers, developers, contractors, people that can they can bring in to do execution work. They'll have worked with several different clients in several different either in your industry or in similar or related industries. And they bring a wealth of experience that you get to have a piece of. You know, these would be multiple 6 figure a year salary type people, professionals that you would get for the price of, say, a marketing coordinator. So, really, it's when you need that high level expertise when your business really demands, and you expect reducing the risk of hiring somebody who's less qualified to do tactics. That's when you wanna bring in a consultant so that they can bring in that experience to the table.
Mark Evans: Let's drill a little bit deeper into that hiring process. When a company goes through the consulting review process, when they're looking at their different options, and there are many options when it comes to the consulting business, what are the key questions to ask? What does a company need to know or understand in terms of how a consultant operates, their track record, the kind of companies they've worked with in the past. I'm trying to get a sense of the due diligence that a company needs to go through to make the right marketing consulting hire.
Kevin Whelan: I think you should never really hire a consultant unless you have familiarized yourself with their thinking. And what I always say is if someone comes to me and they're looking for, you know, they're looking to hire me and they've never read an email or a blog post of mine, I write daily emails and all kinds of things. I'll basically say, hey, why don't you just read my content for a bit, learn, you know, learn what's going on and really kinda get a sense for how I think. And if you wanna pay for my thinking applied to your situation, ultimately that's what it's there for. So when picking a consultant, I mean, referrals can can have a big impact. You know, I just recent recently was referred to a client. There's a lot of trust that gets transferred because the person referring me knows that I'm competent. And actually, the last two clients I got were referrals. So that's a good sign. But if you don't have that, the first thing you should look at is the content. Does it resonate? Do you like their way of thinking? Do you like the way that they're marketing themselves? Because that's gonna be a potential reflection on how they're gonna market you. And then in terms of asking questions, you just wanna know, hey. What are you gonna do? What's your process? What's your thinking? You know? They should be willing to share a little bit of their strategic thinking about your situation and help you paint a potential picture of what it'll be like to work together. So you can ask them any questions like, have you worked with companies like mine before? What kind of results have you gotten? They may have a case study. But at the end of the day, it should be really obvious that they're able to provide value, that they can do so in the sales conversation regardless of the questions you ask. The consultant should be asking you most of the questions and providing you what you need to to succeed and then painting the picture of what a successful engagement will look like. But, ultimately, in terms of what you ask a consultant, that's what what can I expect over the next six or twelve months and and see if you like it?
Mark Evans: Let's flip the coin in terms of the questions that a consultant should ask a potential client because it is a two way street. You're forming a partnership. It's not like hiring an employee where they're just gonna do what you tell them to do. What should the consultant be asking a company? What should they be telling them in terms of how they wanna work and their processes and the steps that a consultant wants to take or needs to take so they can be successful with clients?
Kevin Whelan: I mean, like anything else, the consultant's job is to get really clear on what the goal is of the client. What does success look like? And so I use the analogy of Hawaii, for example. And I say, well, where are trying to go? And, okay, we're trying to go to Hawaii. Okay. Well, that tells us a lot. So, you know, when do you hope to get there? Well, I hope to get there by tomorrow, and I wanna take a train. Well, that's just not gonna happen. First by identifying the goals and the timelines and what does a home run look like and what's realistic. Then you can start to work backwards from that and say, is this goal reasonable? And and ultimately, can I help you achieve that objective? The consultant should also be checking in, and then this goes both ways with how they they feel during the initial sales conversation. If one person feels overly intimidated or doesn't quite feel comfortable with with the kind of working conversation, that may be a sign that your working engagement won't be great long term. Other things that a consultant might ask are, have you worked with a consultant before? Because unlike working with employees, unlike working with freelancers or even agencies, a consultant is basically selling you access to their thinking and maybe a few other benefits, like like training resources and content and structure and other things. You know, that's ultimately what you're paying someone for. So
Mark Evans: No. No. It's a great question because in when I look at the client that I just parted ways with, I'm kicking myself, or maybe it's not kicking myself, but I am disappointed that I didn't ask them all these type of questions. For example, have you worked with a consultant before? That would have given me a lot of insight into how much I needed to educate the client as far as how I work and how the consultants work and what actually consultants do. The second one would have been what does success look like and be fundamentally clear on what do they want to happen over the next three, six, nine months. And the final one, and this is one I think every consultant needs to ask is what are your priorities? What do you want me to do right now versus in a month or two months from now versus six months now? Because when a company hires a marketing consultant or a consultant, any kind of consultant for that matter, there's a gap that they're trying to fill or a pain that they're trying to resolve. And while you're trying to build a long term plan and build a solid foundation, there's low hanging fruit that needs to be picked, which gives the client confidence and validates the buying decision. So I think these are all things that, in hindsight, I'm gonna ask blatantly, not just so suddenly, but it's gonna come out and say, you have to answer these questions. And unless I get the right answers, then we're not gonna be sex successful working together.
Kevin Whelan: You have to say, like, why like, you have to basically try to unsell them into working with you as well. So why even work with me? Why not do this yourself? Why not just try this with the freelancer? Why not just hire an agency to do everything for you? And I think you have to really uncover why they're coming to you, and there needs to be a good reason about why you versus anyone else and why you as a consultant versus anyone else. And then how do you how do you envision success looking in terms of our relationship? How do you envision you know, what do you imagine I'm gonna do, and what do you think you need to do in order to meet these objectives? So those kinds of questions can really help in pushing back and saying, like, why don't what's the real business case here to work together? What's the value of achieving the goal in working together? You know, you wanna grow by 10% or you wanna bring okay. You wanna bring structure to your marketing program. What is the what is the business value of doing that? What's the risk of not doing that? And I think that's where a consultant really has to uncover what is the true business case of working together. And, that that only comes by pushing back and kind of playing devil's advocate about whether they should even work with you in the first place.
Mark Evans: And I will add that the dynamics of working with a strategic marketing consultant versus someone who's focused on tactics are completely different. Because if you're really good at putting together Facebook campaigns or social media updates or advertising on Google, then there's a specific reason why you're hiring them, and they've got a job to do. And you can assess pretty quickly whether they are successful or not. When you're hiring a strategic marketing consultant, it takes time. And strategies evolve, and it may take time for results to emerge. And it lends itself to the next question I wanna ask you about the about the length of an engagement. Now some marketing happens quickly. You can see the results right away. You can gauge whether ROI is happening, but a lot of marketing takes time to develop, evolve, and produce results. Is there a sweet spot as far as the length of a consulting agreement with a marketer, especially one that is is focused on strategy as opposed to tactics?
Kevin Whelan: I mean, yeah. Like, when you when you talk about the difference between strategy and tactics in and of itself, there's no point of being the best Facebook ads manager if your business is positioned poorly or if or if your target market isn't clear and therefore you don't even know if they're on Facebook. You know? So those are the kind like, you know, a good strategic marketer, and I'll get to your question, but a good strategic marketer will, ultimately be the difference between whether you're kinda succeeding or not. And sorry. Can you rephrase your question just a little bit?
Mark Evans: I'm I'm trying to get a sense of how long a consulting engagement should be because a lot of a lot of companies, they expect instant results, so they wanna hire you for a month or two month. And is that realistic, or are you really entering into a long term relationship?
Kevin Whelan: Yeah. I mean, no change really happens fast. So when people come to me, a red flag will be, need to grow, like, by, you know, Black Friday, and this is the November and, all those kinds of things. Real results, sustainable results happen over several months to several years. So I have clients my minimum engagement's about six months, and I have clients that have stayed with me for going on five plus years. And that you know, usually engagements will last for me between a year and two years, sometimes longer and sometimes less. And that's because really when they by the time a client has come to hire you, there's so many layers to marketing, and it's like building up a steam engine. Like, it's it's gonna take it's gonna take a little bit of time to build momentum to get get things moving. And and if you expect full speed by month six, but you haven't done anything in your track record up to that point to get up to full speed already, then you're gonna really you're not gonna achieve what you want. So it's really when you're hiring a consultant, unless you're going in for one specific surgical move, you wanna be thinking at least in terms of three to six months minimum depending on the the project. But if you're thinking about hiring a fractional CMO or a marketing adviser, it should be, you know, six months a year sort of minimum. And then the payoff release the the the tactics that you work on, the things, the projects you're working on tend to come together and congeal around six months. And then you start to really get traction around twelve you know, eight to twelve months. So then the question is, do we stay working together, or do we part ways after six or twelve months? Have we accomplished the mission we set out to do? And have we reached the end of that consultant's expertise? And usually, that's not the case. Usually, they're able to hire in house. They get the systems that you set up going. And at some point, they no longer need you, and then that becomes fairly obvious.
Mark Evans: Let's take a step back. So you're a company, and you've done your due diligence, and you've reached an agreement with a marketing consultant. Everyone's excited to get started. What needs to happen next? How do both parties articulate how they're going to work together, the expectations, and the goals?
Kevin Whelan: Yeah. I think all those things should be set up before you even get started. You know? That stuff should be kind of super clear from the minute you hit go. And if you're kind of just figuring that out once the ink is dry, then then you're kind of already kind of flat footed. So I think, ultimately, it's about getting clear on all those things right off the bat rating before you be get going so that the the vision is clear so that when the ink is dry, you're basically running on a predefined trajectory.
Mark Evans: Not that I wanna focus on the negative, but what happens if the engagement isn't working as well as it isn't working at all or things aren't getting done? I sort of have a fresh wound right now with this client, so it is a very relevant question. Mhmm. What do you do? Like, how do you get realigned with the client to make sure that you're on the same page when it comes to how you're gonna work together, what the expectations are, what needs to get done. Because if you don't do that, then the relationship is going to sour, and then no one's gonna be happy. And the last thing as a consultant that I want is an unhappy client because unhappy clients mean no referrals. The engagement's over. The question is, how do you mitigate engagements that may not be going as well as you expected?
Kevin Whelan: Assuming you've done your upfront work and you have prequalified people and just established a fit and established a good positive trusting relationship, then you shouldn't really run into that many problems later on, but they do they do occur. Sometimes you get into the middle of things and that happens. So it's really the responsibility first of all, a consultant should be a fiduciary. They should be your advocate more so. Even in addition to all their expertise, they should be looking out for your best interest and acting in your best interest at all times. So if things aren't working together, it's the job of the consultant, a, to be willing to have hard but tactful conversations to address things head on, whether it's how people are you you perceive people are feeling, some behaviors that are maybe happening, or some some expectations that aren't being met either on your half or their half. And, ultimately, just addressing it head on and just being ready to put things on the table so you can deal with them objectively. And if ultimately, if it's not working, you need to be ready to part ways, both both parties. Even if there is a commitment period, you should try to work through it as long as there's reasonably a fit and figure out here here we get it get those expectations realigned. But if but if they're not gonna get back on the track, then you probably would just wanna say, you know, we're obviously not a mutual fit for one another. Why don't we part ways and save ourselves the headache? Because it just is not worth the stress for either either of you, and it's not in anyone's best interest to keep working together.
Mark Evans: When you do part ways, is it that easy? It's just a matter of being honest about the fact that they're probably not getting what they expected and you're not being able to deliver the value that you wanna do and just call it a day? Or I'm just trying to figure out how you end engagements in a very respectful and civil manner. So it's kind of like no harm, no foul even though they may have paid you a little bit of money. Like, you don't want the the company going away thinking, I got ripped off or this person misrepresented themselves. And at the same time, you don't want a client to think, they didn't engage with me. They didn't do what they promised they would do, and I wasn't it was impossible for me to do what I that I that why they hired me to do the job.
Kevin Whelan: Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, it's just about having the maturity to kinda call things for what they are and just and ultimately, it's about the the business case of working together. So you could say, you know, it looks like, And and thirdly, taking responsibility on your end as a consultant, even even if you're not fully to blame. To some degree, you signed on with this client. You said the expectations are not with the client. And then during the engagement, they're either meeting those expectations that you agreed to either in writing. You know, in my writing, in my contracts, say, here are here are your responsibilities as a as a as a client of mine as well. And then just being mature enough to say, you know what? I must not have managed expectations clearly enough, or it appears though that you're not able to execute on some of these ideas in the way that we had imagined. And I can't see the business case of continuing to work together unless we make some sort of a change. So either we reduce the scope of our involvement to be more aligned with what's realistic and possible with you, or we potentially part ways. But you just do that in a way that takes full ownership, that claims it and says it's all about the business case. If you don't see the financial business case of working together, if it's not a clear win for both parties, you just wanna say, look, you know, how are you feeling? And I always just really be honest, like how how are you feeling about the engagement? Do you feel like we're moving too fast, too slow, or what have you? And all ultimately, that's gonna be the difference between, positive, exit or not. And the last thing I'll say is if it feels like like, if you're stressed out as a consultant or even as a as a client about the engagement, that's a sign that you have to just communicate. And you have to say, this feels like it's not working. What can we do to turn it around? And if not, I totally understand. But right now, this isn't really working, and I don't wanna waste anyone's time or money. And that's kind of the approach. But ultimately, you do it with tact. And you take as much ownership as you can and let one another save face to the degree that you can because burning bridges is not gonna really benefit anyone and holding people to contracts that they don't wanna be in is not gonna feel good for either of you either. It's not gonna work.
Mark Evans: I want to circle back on something you said about consultants having a fiduciary duty. One of the realities as a consultant, after you've won an engagement, after you've gone through the sales process, you wanna keep the client. Like, the last thing you wanna do as a consultant is lose a client. There's a tendency to go into pleaser mode. But what I've learned over the years is that the best consultants push back. The best consultants hold to their principles and hold to the way that they do things successfully. And often, they'll they'll have the courage or the experience to say, that's not how we do things. If you do this thing, we're gonna move in the wrong direction. And I think a lot of consultants are afraid of doing that because they think if I behave that way, then the client will think of me in a negative way, and then they could fire me. And they live in fear as opposed to moving forward when confident.
Kevin Whelan: That last part of your your point kind of reinforced what what I was thinking as you were saying that, which is as a consultant, you can't you can't be desperate. As soon as you're desperate, if meaning, like, you know, you need the money, then you're already putting yourself and your client at risk that you're not gonna act in their true fiduciary interest. And part of their fiduciary interest fiduciary interest just means you're looking out for their best interest over yours. Right? Which is one of the reasons I don't mark up people's time when I make introductions, why I don't, charge for any execution work. It's all unlimited fixed fee kind of stuff. So, you know, as long as you're not desperate, then you can say things the way that need to be said. You have to be frank and honest, and you have to check-in with yourself and saying, am I doing work in service of their best interest, or do we need to be do we need to have sort of a conversation about it?
Mark Evans: Yeah. It sounds kinda weird because I I love having those kind of conversations with clients. I feel like I deliver the most value when I'm telling them what not to do or how not to spend their money because Yeah. Ultimately, I feel a responsibility for their success. They hired me for that to help them become more successful. And I would be doing them a disservice if I just went along for the ride, if I didn't raise my hand and say, I don't think this is the right thing to do. I think we should do x rather than y. It feels very empowering as a consultant to have that kind of freedom because I'm not an employee. You know, I'm not paycheck to paycheck. And if they let me go, they let me go. But at least I've done the best job possible or I've tried to do the best job possible. And that's a really great place to be as a consultant.
Kevin Whelan: Yeah. You have to be able to fight for their interests regardless of your position, even if it's hard, even if it means, hey. You should let me go and go spend this limited money you have on other things you do. And the minute you stop the minute you stop speaking your truth, the minute you gloss over something and let it go is the minute you shouldn't be a consultant.
Mark Evans: Final question. When you look at the marketing landscape over the last eighteen months, especially in the b to b b to b SaaS world, a lot of companies thought that COVID was the end of the world. And often, the first thing that goes is marketing. So they all scale back their marketing operations only to discover that marketing mattered, and they had to do marketing because the market was really doing well. But I've noticed a lot of companies hiring in house again. At the same time, a lot of ex full time marketers have hung up their shingle, and consulting has become a very popular way to operate. And that's why I'm seeing a lot of people embracing the fractional mantle. I'm curious about your take on the marketing consulting landscape. Do you think there's more opportunities than ever as companies look to fill gaps with specialists, or do you think that we're heading back towards big in house teams? Or maybe there's there's middle ground that that a lot of companies are exploring.
Kevin Whelan: That's a great question. And I obviously can only speak from personal experience. What I see happening is the is that there's a lot more of a distributed sort of a, marketing team. There's about, like, 18 different specializations within marketing, everything from graphic design to content writing, copywriting, you know, you name it, web development. So there's there's so much that can be done. So what I'm what I'm seeing is that they typically have kind of a rock, a person in house who's a marketing manager who is sometimes junior, depending on the size of the marketing budget, or intermediate, and sometimes even senior. And they can base they're basically their job is to produce results. Now sometimes that means they also bring in an admin person or a secondhand person as you know, to do execution tactical stuff, and they focus on the bigger projects. But surrounding those people, as I'm noticing with my clients and maybe this is a bias because they're working with a marketing adviser instead of an in house CMO of some kind. But what I'm seeing is that they're they're outsourcing the web development. They're outsourcing the graphic design. They're outsourcing their sometime like, content they tend to bring in house because that tends to be very close to the brand and and the the voice. But I'm seeing a much more distributed, you know, on demand flexible model that is centered around someone to someone to produce and execute and ultimately project manage, someone like an adviser to really bring in that fractional expertise just to make sure that the guardrails are up and that we're headed in the right direction and somebody who sees inside businesses all days is keeping us on the right track so we're not misspending money and we're investing in the development of our systems and processes and building a marketing campaign. Everything else can be outsourced. You know? Web development, you can get over in The Philippines for $25 an hour. You can you can, you know, you can work with ads folks from all over the world, specialists in their craft. It doesn't make sense to hire one person who's really only gonna be capable at one or two things to try to execute on all the things unless they have no choice in the small budget in which case.
Mark Evans: Yeah. I mean, personally, I think the marketing consulting landscape the marketing landscape is really fascinating right now because the rules are are are changing. The rules of engagement are evolving. Where people work, how people work is being turned upside down. And I think 2021, 2022 is gonna be really interesting, and I'm excited to be part of it. Kevin, well, thanks for the excellent and inspiring conversation. Where can people learn more about you and what you do?
Kevin Whelan: Thanks, Mark. Probably the best place is at my website, kevin.me. I have some consulting services there and, that are sort of general and then, some some everything all the content pretty well these days is focused on helping, marketing consultants and advisers build a profitable advisory business. So that's where they can go to find out most things about me.
Mark Evans: Thanks for listening to another episode of Marketing Spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review, subscribe via I Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app, and share via social media. To learn more about how I help b to b SaaS companies as a fractional CMO, strategic marketing advisor, and coach, send an email to mark@marketingspark.co or connect with me on LinkedIn. I'll talk to you later.